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Old 22 Jul 2005, 12:26 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Judas is considered the ultimate sinner.....right? That's always been my understanding.

However, if Jesus came to die for our sins....wasn't the betrayal of Judas kind of necessary? Should he really be regarded as the ultimate sinner? I mean he did show remorse for his actions. According to what I remember from the Bible, he was overcome with regret and guilt for his action. I think he even begged for forgiveness.


Just a thought that popped into my head....
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Old 22 Jul 2005, 02:17 PM   #2 (permalink)
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I dont think he should be conisdered the ultimate sinner, becauseas I recall, one sin is as great as the next in the eyes of God...

He hung himself, and according to catholic tradition, which means this isnt true, his stomach exploded and his guts spilled out into the field he hung himself in.

Wonderful sense of humor there...

and Yes, Jesus' betrayal was necessary....so for the church to come down on him like that, is in my mind, self defeating...

Its like when the Passion came out and everyone was bitching about who killed Jesus...if the bible is true...then didnt everyone kill jesus?

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Old 22 Jul 2005, 10:57 PM   #3 (permalink)
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There have been debates on whether Judas was actually the most loyal diciple of all. This is based upon the fact that Jesus himself sent Judas to get the guards which could be due to Jesus thinking he could trust Judas to get the job done correctly. The debates continue to this day. It could be either way due to the errors that can occur during translation.
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Old 23 Jul 2005, 12:32 AM   #4 (permalink)
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I was wondering about that....did Judas get "chosen" for the task because he was the only weak enough to accept it? or was it because he was the only one strong enough to go thru with it?

I actually thought this was a curious enough thought that more discussion would have appeared here....


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Old 23 Jul 2005, 12:48 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Look at it this way...

He would have had to have been both....

The weakest because he left Jesus for 30 pieces of silver. It takes a pretty weak man to leave the son of god for a months pay...

but in that same sense he would have had to have been the strongest, because it took alot to do that. He was the weakest because he was gave into tempataion, but he was teh strongest because he was so confident in his betrayal...
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I dunno...it's the"I'm better than you and I'm not even gonna shout it, yell it or overstate it, I'm fuckin Naitch goddamn it and all I really got to say is ......wooooooooooo!!!!!" pic of Ric
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Old 23 Jul 2005, 12:59 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter S. Thompson
Look at it this way...

He would have had to have been both....

The weakest because he left Jesus for 30 pieces of silver. It takes a pretty weak man to leave the son of god for a months pay...

but in that same sense he would have had to have been the strongest, because it took alot to do that. He was the weakest because he was gave into tempataion, but he was teh strongest because he was so confident in his betrayal...
Its been a while since I read the story...but I think I remember him turning down the money
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Old 23 Jul 2005, 02:06 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freebird
Its been a while since I read the story...but I think I remember him turning down the money
As you know the bible is translated from a different language and many languages have different meanings for different things. However according to popular belief Judas betrayed Jesus for 30 pieces of silver and then after the deed was done he felt remorse and returned the coin and comitted suicide.
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Old 23 Jul 2005, 12:47 PM   #8 (permalink)
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This is from Matthew 26 in The King James Bible

1And it came to pass, when Jesus had finished all these sayings, he said unto his disciples, 2 Ye know that after two days is the feast of the passover, and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified. 3 Then assembled together the chief priests, and the scribes, and the elders of the people, unto the palace of the high priest, who was called Caiaphas, 4 And consulted that they might take Jesus by subtilty, and kill him. ......

Then one of the twelve, called Judas Iscariot, went unto the chief priests, 15 And said unto them, What will ye give me, and I will deliver him unto you? And they covenanted with him for thirty pieces of silver. 16 And from that time he sought opportunity to betray him.

The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. 25 Then Judas, which betrayed him, answered and said, Master, is it I? He said unto him, Thou hast said.

46 Rise, let us be going; see, my betrayer is at hand." 47 While he was still speaking, Judas came, one of the twelve, and with him a great crowd with swords and clubs, from the chief priests and the elders of the people. 48 Now the betrayer had given them a sign, saying, "The one I shall kiss is the man; seize him." 49 And he came up to Jesus at once and said, "Hail, Master!" And he kissed him. 50 Jesus said to him, "Friend, why are you here?" Then they came up and laid hands on Jesus and seized him.


Matthew 27:
1 When morning came, all the chief priests and the elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death; 2 and they bound him and led him away and delivered him to Pilate the governor. 3 When Judas, his betrayer, saw that he was condemned, he repented and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders, 4 saying, "I have sinned in betraying innocent blood." They said, "What is that to us? See to it yourself." 5 And throwing down the pieces of silver in the temple, he departed; and he went and hanged himself. 6 But the chief priests, taking the pieces of silver, said, "It is not lawful to put them into the treasury, since they are blood money." 7 So they took counsel, and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in. 8 Therefore that field has been called the Field of Blood to this day.
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Originally Posted by The Glue
I dunno...it's the"I'm better than you and I'm not even gonna shout it, yell it or overstate it, I'm fuckin Naitch goddamn it and all I really got to say is ......wooooooooooo!!!!!" pic of Ric
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Old 23 Jul 2005, 02:02 PM   #9 (permalink)
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I have always believed that in the act of jesus dying for the sins of mankind, that we are equal in our wrong doing, and that as someone said, every win is equal in gods eyes except, suicide. My mom told me that's because thats the only sin we do not have a chance to repent for. because we are dead we do not have a chance to realize where the worng in our action was and ask for forgiveness. Also, Jesus was sent here to die from the time he was born until he was crucified his destiny was to die for the sins of man and be reborn so that man had a form of salvation and we didn't have to face damnation no matter what. jesus was like mankinds second chance. At least from where I stand.
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Old 25 Jul 2005, 10:21 AM   #10 (permalink)
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I wouldn't call myself a "scholar" on the matter, but I was forced to study the Bible for 12 years so....

It's my understanding that Judas Iscariot was originally a Zealot. Zealots were a sect of Judaism that were very fervent in their beliefs, not quite to the degree that fundamentalist terrorists are today, but it was their fierce convictions that spawned the use of the word "zealot" as we define it today.

Anyway, Judas was incredibly dedicated to Jesus and believed with every inch of his body that Jesus was the Messiah as was described in the book of Isaiah, who would be the last Judge to lead the Israelites out of bondage to eternal salvation.

See the Israelites had a bad habit of "abandoning God in their hearts," getting overrun by another culture, living in exile and bondage (slavery), and eventually through years of humility eventually they'd accept God, who would then appear to a person, make him a Judge (a warlord to forcibly remove the Israelites from bondage) and then go save the day, but the Judge would do this not with his power or the power of his men but only by the Grace of God. Best example in the Bible is Gideon.

Back to the subject, it's my understanding that Judas' deepest desire was for Jesus to be the Messiah who would drive the Romans from the Holy Land. Jesus however was more of a hippie and it didn't appear to Judas that the people who needed to see Jesus' true power would ever see it. Jesus did not perform miracles for the Pharisees and Sadducees and the Teachers of the Law, rather he did so for the meek people who needed his miracles and it was rare for those high class people to be present to witness anything.

Judas was getting worried that Jesus would never be the warlord that he was counting on. Judas believed, and again this is only my understanding of it, that if he turned Jesus over to the Romans, who wanted to kill him, he would be forced in fact to wield God's Power and strike down the Romans.

Judas Iscariot loved Jesus very much and indeed as has already been said, had he not handed Jesus to the Romans, then God's will would not have been done.

After Jesus was taken away, and I only mention this because it seems to not be common knowledge, Judas Iscariot took the bag of thirty silver pieces that he was paid for betraying Jesus, went to the temple and threw it at the feet of the Teachers of the Law, cursed them and then hung himself in misery.

I believe that Judas Iscariot was a hero, if a maligned, misunderstood, and himself confused one...most certainly one of the more tragic heros of the Bible.

Again this is my understanding from the lessons that I was taught. Take it for what it's worth...$0.02.

Late.
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Old 25 Jul 2005, 02:15 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Great post Glue....Thanks a lot.

I don't even remember why this thought had popped into my head. lol.

Judas always seems to get cast as a villain..... However, from where I stand, he played a crucial role in God's plan....

He seems more misguided than evil in my opinion.
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Old 25 Jul 2005, 03:05 PM   #12 (permalink)
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I have a few questions in this discussion for us to ponder...

1. If Judas loved Jesus, and knowingly betrayed him, would he do it for money and give it back later?

2. If Judas was a hero, because he changed his mind afterwards when it was too late, would the same rational apply to Hitler?

3. If Judas was looking for a warrior to free Israel, wouldn't he be more likely disappointed with Jesus?

I do like alot of what you stated Glue but I had a concern of some of what you said.

The criticizing the translations of the Bible might be a little off. We have historical copies of the gospel going back to the century of Christ's death. And during that time, we have correspondence (letters) between the churches from which the essential story of the gospel can be reconstructed/verified. There is no evidence that there is any other Gospel beisdes the one we have.
There are "gospels" that are much different, like the Gospel of Barnabas, but they don't have the same reliable ancestry as we do with Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Those gospels always post-date the ones we have.
By saying "any other Gospel" I mean, that the story we have of Christ appears to be the correct one.

I don't know if Judas is considered the "ultimate sinner", but he is the "typical" one. The one who hears about Christ and doesn't trust him to his own destruction, but thats my opinion.
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Old 25 Jul 2005, 05:02 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wanderer
I have a few questions in this discussion for us to ponder...

1. If Judas loved Jesus, and knowingly betrayed him, would he do it for money and give it back later?

2. If Judas was a hero, because he changed his mind afterwards when it was too late, would the same rational apply to Hitler?

3. If Judas was looking for a warrior to free Israel, wouldn't he be more likely disappointed with Jesus?

I do like alot of what you stated Glue but I had a concern of some of what you said.

The criticizing the translations of the Bible might be a little off. We have historical copies of the gospel going back to the century of Christ's death. And during that time, we have correspondence (letters) between the churches from which the essential story of the gospel can be reconstructed/verified. There is no evidence that there is any other Gospel beisdes the one we have.
There are "gospels" that are much different, like the Gospel of Barnabas, but they don't have the same reliable ancestry as we do with Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Those gospels always post-date the ones we have.
By saying "any other Gospel" I mean, that the story we have of Christ appears to be the correct one.

I don't know if Judas is considered the "ultimate sinner", but he is the "typical" one. The one who hears about Christ and doesn't trust him to his own destruction, but thats my opinion.
I unfortunately don't have the time to take on this that I'd like to but to give quick answers as best as someone as meekly educated in the matter as I am (and compared to those who taught me I certainly am):

1) Why not take their money?? He could buy food for the Disciples or give it in a form of tithe at the next temple in the next town...as far as he was concerned, when the Romans came for Jesus, he'd have to strike them down...or at least that's my understanding of the situation. When Jesus not only consented to arrest, but he also stopped Peter from lashing out (Peter cut off a soldier's ear as they tried to take Jesus away), Judas realized that Jesus smiting down his enemies weilding the Hammer of Jehovah wasn't exactly going to happen. Hence, his guilt, his return of the blood money and subsequent suicide.

2) Judas was a hero not because he changed his mind, but because he did his part. Had Jesus not died, according to my faith, God's Promise to send a Messiah to save His People would've never been fulfilled. God had to send a whale to eat Jonah before that orenery bastard would lift a finger to help Him...God gave man free will...

3) It is my belief that Judas was indeed disappointed with Jesus and betrayed him to the Romans to jump start the campaign of bloody retribution that Judas interpreted as God's Promise...the final Judge for Israel...Jesus Christ, the Liberator.

Just my understanding. Unfortunately I have no more time for this, but good thread to say the least.

Late.
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Old 25 Jul 2005, 05:13 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wanderer
1. If Judas loved Jesus, and knowingly betrayed him, would he do it for money and give it back later?
huh?...thats kinda what he did

Quote:
2. If Judas was a hero, because he changed his mind afterwards when it was too late, would the same rational apply to Hitler?
He wasn't a hero because he changed his mind later...I think you completely missed the point there
Quote:
3. If Judas was looking for a warrior to free Israel, wouldn't he be more likely disappointed with Jesus?
He was looking for a messiah, He knew Jesus to be that messiah. However Jesus was doing things more peacefully than Judas expected. From what I read (I'm not sure what you read) Judas merely wanted everyone else to see and know what he knew.

Quote:
I do like alot of what you stated Glue but I had a concern of some of what you said.
read it again.
Quote:
The criticizing the translations of the Bible might be a little off. We have historical copies of the gospel going back to the century of Christ's death. And during that time, we have correspondence (letters) between the churches from which the essential story of the gospel can be reconstructed/verified. There is no evidence that there is any other Gospel beisdes the one we have.
There are "gospels" that are much different, like the Gospel of Barnabas, but they don't have the same reliable ancestry as we do with Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Those gospels always post-date the ones we have.
By saying "any other Gospel" I mean, that the story we have of Christ appears to be the correct one.
Gospel of Barnabus is not a gospel....its the insane ramblings of the book of Mormon.
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Old 28 Jul 2005, 04:03 PM   #15 (permalink)
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i think Judas was an interesting person, who was mentioned so very little and we are given little to base our opinions on. Obviously he had to be quite devoted to Christ to have been one of his 12 disciples, this cannot be denied. However, and unfortunant for Judas, God's plan was for one person to betray Christ, which we all have to decide why this is, since it wasnt a necessary thing to happen. Think about it, Christ could have been taken in the streets in passing, or happened upon accidentaly and been siezed, but yet God's plan was for Christ to be captured through betrayal. Perhaps this is a message to show people that those closest to us could betray us, perhaps it is to show that even that person who commits such an act can repent, as the verse said that Judas did repent. Sadly for Judas, he was the unfortunant member which God chose to carry forth this plan.

I dont see Judas as the ultimate sinner though. Infact according to christ , if we were to declare an "ultimate sin" it would be blaspeme of the Holy Ghost.


(from Mark 3, verses 28and29) Quoting Christ.
"28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: 29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation"


just my thoughts.
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