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a thought spawned by LIVE 8
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Old 05 Jul 2005, 03:30 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default a thought spawned by LIVE 8

with the huge efforts of LIVE 8, and the thoughts of poor countries being brought to the forefront, i was wondering one thing, how much assistance should the US and other nations give other countries?

for years i've watched Sally Struthers and others talk about the poor people of Ethiopia and other areas mainly around Africa that needs help, but every time i see those shows one question i always ponder is:

Why is it if conditions are so poor, and the people are so disease prone, do the people continue to reproduce at the rapid rates that they do? And how can we help them to be self sufficient, not just dropping their debts, only for them to just get right back into the situtation they are in now.

now, i know that the main response most likely will be that using protection is in some way against the people's religions over there, or at least that is what i have heard for years. Now, i'm not leaning this one way or the other, but rather pondering how far should other people go to help people before they show the rationality of life and the willingness to do what's right for themselves?


For people who know more about the conditions and the people there, feel free to respond, as i will willingly say i dont know that much, but just pondering on the subject.
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Old 05 Jul 2005, 04:27 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Good thoughts. Here in America I have a policy that if someone can't afford to feed, clothe and shelter kids then they shouldn't have kids. I've seen too many cases where parents are living off their kids' SSI checks or the per child perks they get from Public Assistance, and they've confessed to me that they could be working for their own money and are quite content to continue on as they are...of course, being in collections I see that often.

But over in Africa, it's different. It's tradition in some countries of Africa to have many children, as when the adults become too old to work efficiently, their children then take care of them as they move into their twilight. Plus, no matter what a person's economic situation, the desire to procreate is a natural tendency. There's really only so far a person can go in telling someone not to bear children.

However, if I were over there, and I grew up in such a famine-ravaged land as Ethiopia is (or at least as famine-ravaged as fatass Sally Struthers would have you believe), I wouldn't have more than one...if that. I hate it when my kids whine about being hungry, and they're not wanting for much...to hear a kid cry in agony because of the depth of his/her hunger, and to not be able to provide for them...that'd break my heart.

Bottom line...other than that, I don't know.

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Old 05 Jul 2005, 07:09 PM   #3 (permalink)
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See in this country we do everything in our power to prevent minorites from having children...Why do you think we only put abortion clinics in lower class neighborhoods? and then perch fresh out of drug rehab religious wackos in front of the clinics to prevent white girls um ah I mean all girls from having abortions....because the last thing our president wants is for anymore Christian (aka white) girls to kill their unborn children....So we have our politicans and Pro-lifers to be against all abortion even though well all know what type of abortions they still want to go on.....because if our government really wants to end obortion they would just make it illegal but then the so called riff-raff would be able to have kid after kid and we just can't have that can we George?
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Old 05 Jul 2005, 07:40 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Tommy Gavin
See in this country we do everything in our power to prevent minorites from having children...Why do you think we only put abortion clinics in lower class neighborhoods? and then perch fresh out of drug rehab religious wackos in front of the clinics to prevent white girls um ah I mean all girls from having abortions....because the last thing our president wants is for anymore Christian (aka white) girls to kill their unborn children....So we have our politicans and Pro-lifers to be against all abortion even though well all know what type of abortions they still want to go on.....because if our government really wants to end obortion they would just make it illegal but then the so called riff-raff would be able to have kid after kid and we just can't have that can we George?

ok first that is just stupid, and second, what does that have to do with my question?
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Old 05 Jul 2005, 07:50 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Double K
ok first that is just stupid, and second, what does that have to do with my question?
It has to do with our country doing everything in it's power to prevent unwanted children so we don't turn into one of those African countries even though our govenment acts like they are against doing so.
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Old 05 Jul 2005, 09:18 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Double K
with the huge efforts of LIVE 8, and the thoughts of poor countries being brought to the forefront, i was wondering one thing, how much assistance should the US and other nations give other countries?

for years i've watched Sally Struthers and others talk about the poor people of Ethiopia and other areas mainly around Africa that needs help, but every time i see those shows one question i always ponder is:

Why is it if conditions are so poor, and the people are so disease prone, do the people continue to reproduce at the rapid rates that they do? And how can we help them to be self sufficient, not just dropping their debts, only for them to just get right back into the situtation they are in now.

now, i know that the main response most likely will be that using protection is in some way against the people's religions over there, or at least that is what i have heard for years. Now, i'm not leaning this one way or the other, but rather pondering how far should other people go to help people before they show the rationality of life and the willingness to do what's right for themselves?


For people who know more about the conditions and the people there, feel free to respond, as i will willingly say i dont know that much, but just pondering on the subject.
These people are starving...desperate for shelter...medicene etc....

We all have seen the ads to donate to feed them, but if they need money for food...I'm thinkin they don't have money for birth control devices either.
Pullin out isn't 100%....trust me

Leaving their only option for birth control to be abstaining....you can tell me I can't eat.....you can tell me I can't have my own home....you can tell me I can't have sex...

But please, god, don't tell me all three things.



The best way to help them to become a profitable country IMO, would be to help them establish irrigation systems and...help them to find something their country can sell to bring them into the global market place...other wise they continue to need assistance.

We however have the technology to set up the irrigation, we can teach them to farm ( or whatever trade they find is easily adaptable to their land) ....

Give a man a fish , blah blah blah
Teach a man to fish, blah blah blah
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Old 05 Jul 2005, 09:50 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ASSHOLE
We all have seen the ads to donate to feed them, but if they need money for food...I'm thinkin they don't have money for birth control devices either.
Pullin out isn't 100%....trust me

Leaving their only option for birth control to be abstaining....you can tell me I can't eat.....you can tell me I can't have my own home....you can tell me I can't have sex...

But please, god, don't tell me all three things.
i certainly see your point, but if i lived there, and the conditions were so terrible, the last thing i want is to bring in more children than i can afford to support, thereby being forced to watch them suffer without food, water shelter and meds.

my point was basically why should i support their children? for example, i got into the middle of an argument a while back , a worker in a restuarant i was delivering to was telling his boss's his g/f was pregnant again. the boss says, how can you afford another child? the worker replies, she'll just get support/welfare, like it was no big deal. the boss then gives him the what for, letting him know that we all will now be forced to take care of his children.

i know that isnt the same as the situation in Africa, but the question was how far do we go? how much money do we give to people who are pumping out kids faster than we could support them?

but i think your ideas on teaching them to farm, giving them some sort of trade for starters is a better answer than forgiving them their debts, and then letting them go back to the same way of life, just falling back into the same problems again.
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Old 05 Jul 2005, 10:09 PM   #8 (permalink)
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What I don't get is why the people are supporting canceling the debt. How's that gonna help? Is it like declaring a big bankrupcy?
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Old 05 Jul 2005, 11:22 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Dade
What I don't get is why the people are supporting canceling the debt. How's that gonna help? Is it like declaring a big bankrupcy?
So they can use the money they make to support a growing economy rather than paying off debts.

Edit: Africa also has a plethora of resources that are demanded by other nations. But because they didn't have the technology to expliot these resources, corporations from other nations have taken over these projects. [Ex: Diamond mines.] The African people do get jobs from these businesses, but the profits made by the companies does not stay in Africa to help the nation. The money must be used, in one aspect, to create infrastructure to allow Africans to run and maintain their own businesses.

Edit 2: Also, the African masses need to be educated on what the problems are and how to fix them. If they aren't aware the problems will remain.

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Old 06 Jul 2005, 02:06 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Tommy Gavin
See in this country we do everything in our power to prevent minorites from having children...Why do you think we only put abortion clinics in lower class neighborhoods? and then perch fresh out of drug rehab religious wackos in front of the clinics to prevent white girls um ah I mean all girls from having abortions....because the last thing our president wants is for anymore Christian (aka white) girls to kill their unborn children....So we have our politicans and Pro-lifers to be against all abortion even though well all know what type of abortions they still want to go on.....because if our government really wants to end obortion they would just make it illegal but then the so called riff-raff would be able to have kid after kid and we just can't have that can we George?
You are seriously deluded. First of all, if in this country we do everything in our power to prevent minorities from having children, then as a person who grew up in an inner city, minority rich neighborhood...it's not fuckin' working. And in my city, the abortion clinic is in Brighton. I don't want to say everyone in Brighton is rich, but over there people have to have their lawn less than an inch off the ground or they get a ticket.

I don't know how it is in Boston, or Arizona, but since what you say is the complete opposite of reality where I live, I'm guessing that you're just talking out of your ass.

BTW, are you aware how much an abortion costs without insurance??? Well, it's in the thousands and I'm pretty sure Medicaid or Medicare won't cover it, so you can take your newest cracked out theory and file it in the crapper with the rest of them.

Damn, do people think before they spout off anymore??

Late.
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Old 06 Jul 2005, 03:00 PM   #11 (permalink)
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unless my information is incorrect i think most of africa is still under the reign of kings arent they? Not being part of a capitalist society, probably most of the money sent there i doubt ever reaches those who need it anyway, but sad if thats true that those people who rule over the people there could care less about the welfare of the majority.
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Old 06 Jul 2005, 03:03 PM   #12 (permalink)
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What I don't get is why the people are supporting canceling the debt. How's that gonna help? Is it like declaring a big bankrupcy?
yeah, i think forgiving their debts is pointless, i cant recall the last time i read about the US paying any of their debts to other countries, nor other countries paying us. But they may as well let it go, its not like they are going to recieve the money anyway, but then again, perhaps if other countries were willing to forgive the debts to africa, maybe they could get the ruling bodies there to agree to help their people through growth and better conditions in return for the cancellation of the debts.
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Old 06 Jul 2005, 07:42 PM   #13 (permalink)
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BTW, are you aware how much an abortion costs without insurance??? Well, it's in the thousands and I'm pretty sure Medicaid or Medicare won't cover it, so you can take your newest cracked out theory and file it in the crapper with the rest of them.

Late.
Abortion without insurance $375.00 as of December 2001....Now do you really want me to explain why I know this or for once will you take my word for it?
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Old 06 Jul 2005, 09:06 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Tommy Gavin
Abortion without insurance $375.00 as of December 2001....Now do you really want me to explain why I know this or for once will you take my word for it?

The fuck are you hung up on abortion for? It has nothing to do with AIDS in africa, George Bush, orMinorities.What are you talkingabout? Let it go, we all know you like to talk out your ass, and thats cute, but the grown ups are talking now...


Cancelling teh debt is good, so that Africa can build some sort of infrastructure.

I think that one reason that there is so much problem with the AIDS virus over there is simply the fact that the technology barrier inhibits so much advance in eradicating the disease. Condoms are well and good, but if you dont even know what one is...then it isnt really and option.

Also, many AIDS pills have to be taken on an hour to hour timetabkle, and there is a definite diffrence in teh way we tell time, and the way they tell time, so to properly medicate them, they have to be told how to tell the proper time. (as in Hours)

I think this is a good thing, simply becasue if it will improve the suffereing of those in Africa, and will not affect our lives at all, why shouldnt we do it??
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Old 06 Jul 2005, 10:59 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Double K
unless my information is incorrect i think most of africa is still under the reign of kings arent they? Not being part of a capitalist society, probably most of the money sent there i doubt ever reaches those who need it anyway, but sad if thats true that those people who rule over the people there could care less about the welfare of the majority.
They probably have dictatorships or something akin to that....

Tho while trying to establish an economy, America should not force their political processes on them IMO.

In the early stages of an economy, I believe it would be best to work with a command economy system. These people are impoverished, they don't really have the money to try to establish a more competitive market economy.

If communism were to work at all, the beginning stages of setting up a profitable country would be the time to do it. ITs a time in their development where they would benefit most from cooperation rather than competition. With the profit going into the economy of the country rather than back to the people, it would also enable them to get out of debt....

Then a few years down the road, when they are properly established......we can help them switch over to a more democratic system.
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