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Discussion INVASION II (Raw vs Smackdown!), Russo's Philosophy etc.
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Old 06 Jul 2004, 01:43 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Discussion INVASION II (Raw vs Smackdown!), Russo's Philosophy etc.

Before I start.................FINALLY.....FEROCIOUS....... .......HAS COME TO PEE DUBYA EFF


DISCUSSION: Invasion II (Raw vs. SD), Vince Russo's "philosophy", etc.

It's been over 2 and a half years since we saw the end of the original INVASION. It has been almost 2 and a half years since we saw the ROSTER SPLIT go into place.

Do you think the WWE should have another Invasion angle? (Smackdown vs. Raw).


Here are my reasons:[*] Fan Interest. Smackdown is sucking dick right now. Raw hasn't exactly been top notch either. [*] No bias (atleast I think?). The last time we saw an 'invasion', the bookers were very biased towards the WWF (and made them look 'head over heels' better than the alliance). This time around? Perhaps 'both sides' can be made to look equal.....although there is a risk that the Smackdown wrestlers could be made to look inferior. [*] Once and for all, end the FAILURE of the Roster Split (more on this later).



Does Vince's Russo's "philosophy" of "Crash TV" actually work?

In an article from the year 2000 (I'll paraphrase his exact quotes at a later date if neccessary), Vince Russo gave the following insight.

-He claimed that while HE enjoyed long 20-25 minute matches (between two superb technical wrestlers), he also realized that most marks do NOT. Therefore - Vince Russo booked matches in such a way, that matches would be MUCH shorter. Russo argued that today's fans WANT to see a quicker finish, and are FAR more interested in the STORYLINE behind matches than the match itself.

-From a personal standpoint? I would have to agree with Russo on this. Don't get me wrong - I don't totally agree with EVERYTHING that Vince Russo says. I just agree with him on this particular philosophy.


Back in the year 2000, it seemed like the WWE was doing everything right.


a) Matches were shorter

b) More backstage skits

c) The first and last segments of each show almost ALWAYS dealt with the 'main event storyline' (or whichever the "main" storyline was).

d) There were never any commerical breaks during matches.......which in today's current era, has to be one of the most ANNOYING things of all-time. Seriously - last Monday.....we saw TWO commerical breaks during the Benoit/Kane match! Give me a break!

e) Longer matches were saved for PPV's, or occasional main-event matches on TV (the last 15-20 minutes of Raw or Smackdown).

f) There was almost ALWAYS some form of storyline progression. This was one of the MOST IMPORTANT things back then. Each show, a fan could expect some form of development to occur. Nowadays? A fan could watch 2 shows in a row and see MINIMAL storyline development. This was another one of Vince's Russo's 'philosophies' by the way. Take the expected ending.....and give it a completely new twist to throw off the fans. Of course - Russo was a bit too EXTREME in this philosophy (in my opinion), but he was on the right track.


g) Save the longer matches for the main-eventers (or for guys who are WAY over with the fans). Back then - we never saw LONG matches between two guys who weren't main-eventers (or that the fans didn't really care THAT much about). Today? The WWE regularly has longer matches.....even for people that are BORING! How many times within the past month have we seen LOO-ONG tag matches between combinations of Orton/Flair/Batista verses combinations of Jericho, Edge, and Benoit?


The WWE does NOT create main-event superstars. Ultimately -the fans are the ones who create main-event superstars.

Sadly enough - I'm not sure if the WWE realizes this. Take a look at Edge and Shelton Benjamin for instance. Despite getting victories (or atleast being made to look good) over the likes of Triple H and Randy Orton, Benjamin was still getting lukewarm pops at best.

Despite Edge being made to look 5x more superior than Chris Jericho (when they've tagged together recently), Jericho has been the one who has garnered the bigger face pops.



Here are a few predictions of mine:

1) Unless Edge, Shelton Benjamin, and even Chris Benoit get better gimmicks (or something interesting ADDED to the their current gimmicks), neither men will progress beyond the point they are at. Edge and Benjamin will NEVER be accepted as main-eventers, while Benoit will continue to receive lukewarm face pops (and will still be perceived as a 'transitional' 'paper' champ).

2) Guys like John Cena, Eddie Guerrero, Brock Lesnar, and Kurt Angle would be just as 'over' today, even if the roster split had not gone into place.

I think this is the biggest thing that the WWE has to realize.

Whether you give someone 3 minutes or 10 minutes of TV time, it intially makes no difference. If the fans like the gimmick, they will respond accordingly. If the fans LIKE the gimmick, the bookers will be inclined to allot more television time NATURALLY!

In other words - give Edge, Shelton Benjamin, and Batista alll the TV time if you want, but if the fans don't CARE about them (as much as the bookers want them to), then the 'extra' TV time does NOTHING (other than being counter productive).



Which is why I want the Roster Split to end

It's obvious when you think about it. Here's what I'd like to see.


-Sometime after Summerslam, Smackdown starts invading Raw (and then vice-versa). The culmination of this "invasion" will take place at Wrestlemania (where the US/IC title, tag team titles, and World titles will be unified).

-After Wrestlemania, the rosters get unified. The WWE downsizes their roster by atleast 30% (so guys like Pulumbo, A-Train, Test, Hardcore Holly, Rikishi, Scotty 2 Hotty, Billy Gunn, and other essentially USELESS wrestlers to the WWE take a hike). Basically - any wrestler who has no UPSIDE (i.e. has had past 'failed' pushes or genuinely has no potential to draw for the company) should be canned.

-With a depth pool consisting of Triple H, Shawn Michaels, Chris Benoit, Chris Jericho, Eddie Guerrero, John Cena, Mordecai, Undertaker, John Bradshaw Layfield, RVD, Kane, Rey Mysterio, Kurt Angle (if he gets cleared), and Brock Lesnar (if he returns) on almost EVERY show, there is NO FREAKIN' WAY that the WWE should EVER have a "boring" show.

Elaborating on my last point - "how can you fit these guys all on to TV?" you may ask?

Simple:

1) Cut back the time alloted to each match (as I stated earlier)

2) More backstage skits

3) I still advocate bringing back the Hardcore 24/7 belt. Not only does it get more people TV time, but it APPEALS to the marks. Remember - most fans are MARKS.....not smarks.

And more importantly - the first and last segments should almost ALWAYS go to the main-event (or main) storyline.


The fans will always cheer (or boo) a good gimmick. It should simply be the bookers goal to create good gimmicks, and push wrestlers according to crowd response. Nothing more, nothing less. Longer matches should be saved for PPV's. The TV shows should mainly focus on storyline build up (with the occasional "long" match between wrestlers at the end of shows).

Thanks for taking the time to read this. It is a bit long, however I'm sure you will agree that I have made some very good points, and it does make a good read.

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Old 06 Jul 2004, 01:49 PM   #2 (permalink)
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i liked invasion + it would be cool to see the matches the new guys could put up against each other like ORTON V CENA and PAUL LONDON V MATT HARDY and otheres with main eventers like Y2J V JBL + more
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Old 06 Jul 2004, 05:13 PM   #3 (permalink)
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many, many flaws.....but you did take the time to think it all up, and for that I commend you.....

as with any succesful entity, there can be too much of a good thing.....the brand split had to happen, as two shows of the same people each week would not garner near the ratings they do now......

two seperate shows with two seperate brands at least give the ILLUSION that they are not one and the same entity.....they also give the opportunity for more talent to be around on a much bigger stage than they would be if it were just one show.....sure, some of the guys probably don't deserve the huge pushes they get and others do.....but it you cut the product in half, yet left 70% of the talent.....it gets watered down even more.....

no, as much as we would like to see them unify everything, it makes far more sense to have the split.....and that's the bottom line.....

and.....Lesnar ain't gonna ever be back.....
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Old 07 Jul 2004, 11:21 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Ferocious
Before I start.................FINALLY.....FEROCIOUS....... .......HAS COME TO PEE DUBYA EFF


DISCUSSION: Invasion II (Raw vs. SD), Vince Russo's "philosophy", etc.

It's been over 2 and a half years since we saw the end of the original INVASION. It has been almost 2 and a half years since we saw the ROSTER SPLIT go into place.

Do you think the WWE should have another Invasion angle? (Smackdown vs. Raw).


Here are my reasons:[*] Fan Interest. Smackdown is sucking dick right now. Raw hasn't exactly been top notch either. [*] No bias (atleast I think?). The last time we saw an 'invasion', the bookers were very biased towards the WWF (and made them look 'head over heels' better than the alliance). This time around? Perhaps 'both sides' can be made to look equal.....although there is a risk that the Smackdown wrestlers could be made to look inferior. [*] Once and for all, end the FAILURE of the Roster Split (more on this later).
Since this is a multiple topic thread I just adress each point individually. The Brand Split is needed when you have over 60 active wrestlers. There really isn't much to say about this. When you do a Raw v. SD thing then all the mid-carders fall through the cracks. Including guys like Jericho and Van Dam. You see there just isn't enough time to fit 10 storylines in 2 hours of tv, and that is what they would have to do if they really wanted to combine both shows to make in invasion type angle. Not to mention SD is already made to look inferoir to Raw, as they talk about it on SD all the time. So, its not like we don't know Raw would win the angle anyways.



Quote:
Does Vince's Russo's "philosophy" of "Crash TV" actually work?

In an article from the year 2000 (I'll paraphrase his exact quotes at a later date if neccessary), Vince Russo gave the following insight.

-He claimed that while HE enjoyed long 20-25 minute matches (between two superb technical wrestlers), he also realized that most marks do NOT. Therefore - Vince Russo booked matches in such a way, that matches would be MUCH shorter. Russo argued that today's fans WANT to see a quicker finish, and are FAR more interested in the STORYLINE behind matches than the match itself.

-From a personal standpoint? I would have to agree with Russo on this. Don't get me wrong - I don't totally agree with EVERYTHING that Vince Russo says. I just agree with him on this particular philosophy.


Back in the year 2000, it seemed like the WWE was doing everything right.


a) Matches were shorter

b) More backstage skits

c) The first and last segments of each show almost ALWAYS dealt with the 'main event storyline' (or whichever the "main" storyline was).

d) There were never any commerical breaks during matches.......which in today's current era, has to be one of the most ANNOYING things of all-time. Seriously - last Monday.....we saw TWO commerical breaks during the Benoit/Kane match! Give me a break!

e) Longer matches were saved for PPV's, or occasional main-event matches on TV (the last 15-20 minutes of Raw or Smackdown).

f) There was almost ALWAYS some form of storyline progression. This was one of the MOST IMPORTANT things back then. Each show, a fan could expect some form of development to occur. Nowadays? A fan could watch 2 shows in a row and see MINIMAL storyline development. This was another one of Vince's Russo's 'philosophies' by the way. Take the expected ending.....and give it a completely new twist to throw off the fans. Of course - Russo was a bit too EXTREME in this philosophy (in my opinion), but he was on the right track.
Rather then go all out, let me just say Vince Russo wasn't capapable of running a wrestling promotion, and we saw what happend the minute that he got power. A company over 10 years old folds, and he is soon out of a job. Vince Russo and Jim Heard are two men who don't belong in wrestling, and have done way more harm then they ever did good.


Quote:
g) Save the longer matches for the main-eventers (or for guys who are WAY over with the fans). Back then - we never saw LONG matches between two guys who weren't main-eventers (or that the fans didn't really care THAT much about). Today? The WWE regularly has longer matches.....even for people that are BORING! How many times within the past month have we seen LOO-ONG tag matches between combinations of Orton/Flair/Batista verses combinations of Jericho, Edge, and Benoit?
When you say back then, when are you talking about? And when you say long matches how long are you talking about?


Quote:
The WWE does NOT create main-event superstars. Ultimately -the fans are the ones who create main-event superstars.

Sadly enough - I'm not sure if the WWE realizes this. Take a look at Edge and Shelton Benjamin for instance. Despite getting victories (or atleast being made to look good) over the likes of Triple H and Randy Orton, Benjamin was still getting lukewarm pops at best. Despite Edge being made to look 5x more superior than Chris Jericho (when they've tagged together recently), Jericho has been the one who has garnered the bigger face pops.
Yes and this is because of the fact that he should not be a singles wrestler yet. As for Edge, he is one of the wrestlers who I think shouldn't hold a contract. He can't speak, he really can't wrestle, and anything that he has done, that will go down in history, is when he was a team with Christian. Unlike Hart, Stiener, Valentine and others these tag team wrestlers in Edge and Benjimen were taking out of their teams to soon. Though I'm not sure Edge should ever be anything more then a tag wrestler......



Quote:
Here are a few predictions of mine:

1) Unless Edge, Shelton Benjamin, and even Chris Benoit get better gimmicks (or something interesting ADDED to the their current gimmicks), neither men will progress beyond the point they are at. Edge and Benjamin will NEVER be accepted as main-eventers, while Benoit will continue to receive lukewarm face pops (and will still be perceived as a 'transitional' 'paper' champ).
This entire statement is not proven, as Benjimen is injured and hasn't even been around latly, as I said before Edge shouldn't be a singles wrestler. And Benoit doesn't get lukewarm anythings. Ratings have been up since he has been champion, and transistional champions tend to last 3 months or shorter at best......

Quote:
2) Guys like John Cena, Eddie Guerrero, Brock Lesnar, and Kurt Angle would be just as 'over' today, even if the roster split had not gone into place.
Guys like Cena, Eddy, Brock and Kurt? Kurt and Eddy I'll give you, Brock made no real evident impact, and wasn't a good heel on his own anyways. Cena, will be nothing in 18 months mark my words. Which only leaves Eddy who to me is the best wrestler in North America.

But lets play with this notion for a bit, even discarding Brock. Now you have Eddy, Cena and Angle. If you want to focus and push these three men and end the roster split. There is realisticly only room left for Evolution, Bradshaw, Benoit and Kane. There is your two hours already with 1 brand and the amount of time each of these men take up per show. A brand split just wouldn't work as where is the room for the Jericho's, London's, Noble's, C. Guerrero's and other superstar.....



Quote:
I think this is the biggest thing that the WWE has to realize.

Whether you give someone 3 minutes or 10 minutes of TV time, it intially makes no difference. If the fans like the gimmick, they will respond accordingly. If the fans LIKE the gimmick, the bookers will be inclined to allot more television time NATURALLY!

In other words - give Edge, Shelton Benjamin, and Batista alll the TV time if you want, but if the fans don't CARE about them (as much as the bookers want them to), then the 'extra' TV time does NOTHING (other than being counter productive).
How much time did Benjimen really get when it came down to it? 5 minutes?
And for some reason, I don't know about you but Batista has recently been a breath of fresh air. Not to mention he is the memeber in Evolution making the most progress and gaining the most out of the four. Edge, again I agree with, whenever he talks on the mic, I just turn the tv. He has 2 different voices and both sound terriable, exspecially when he uses both of them in the same segment. One minute he is talking like Johnny Nitro the next minute he is talking like Road Warroir Hawk. Edge sucks, I've been saying this since the brood broke up.....



Quote:
Which is why I want the Roster Split to end
I've already exlpained why this would be the worse idea in the world, being there isn't even enough time on a 2 hour show Once you get Taker, Eddy, Angle, Evo, Cena, Bradshaw, and Benoit out of the way

Quote:
It's obvious when you think about it. Here's what I'd like to see.


-Sometime after Summerslam, Smackdown starts invading Raw (and then vice-versa). The culmination of this "invasion" will take place at Wrestlemania (where the US/IC title, tag team titles, and World titles will be unified).
Bad idea, and who are suppose to be the heels? SD or Raw who are suppose to be the face's. 60 men and 3 belts sounds like a disaster........

Quote:
-After Wrestlemania, the rosters get unified. The WWE downsizes their roster by atleast 30% (so guys like Pulumbo, A-Train, Test, Hardcore Holly, Rikishi, Scotty 2 Hotty, Billy Gunn, and other essentially USELESS wrestlers to the WWE take a hike). Basically - any wrestler who has no UPSIDE (i.e. has had past 'failed' pushes or genuinely has no potential to draw for the company) should be canned.
This statement sounds like you don't want any mid-carders or low-carders on the show. Making it that all the Main-Eventers would have to jobb to each other all them time. What low carder and mid-carders would you keep?

Quote:
-With a depth pool consisting of Triple H, Shawn Michaels, Chris Benoit, Chris Jericho, Eddie Guerrero, John Cena, Mordecai, Undertaker, John Bradshaw Layfield, RVD, Kane, Rey Mysterio, Kurt Angle (if he gets cleared), and Brock Lesnar (if he returns) on almost EVERY show, there is NO FREAKIN' WAY that the WWE should EVER have a "boring" show.
Right and who should be the jobber of that bunch, now that there would no longer be lower-level guys to continue to help elevate their current posistion

Quote:
Elaborating on my last point - "how can you fit these guys all on to TV?" you may ask?

Simple:

1) Cut back the time alloted to each match (as I stated earlier)
So you want 5 miuntue matches from Main Event wrestlers. That is very bad booking.

Quote:
2) More backstage skits
Personally I think we have to many as it is. Now its like the people in the back ignore that fact that there is a camera in their face. Like the whole Lita hiding her Kane affair in the begging, But she said it on National TV, are we to assume Matt Hardy doesn't watch TV? Backstage is bad, Gene Oakerland type interviews are much better, and make it so that getting an interview an actual treat.

Quote:
3) I still advocate bringing back the Hardcore 24/7 belt. Not only does it get more people TV time, but it APPEALS to the marks. Remember - most fans are MARKS.....not smarks.
But with all the mid-carders and low level guys mainly gone to make room for a giant show of Main Eventers, who would actaully be in this hardcore division. The people you wanted to get rid of, would have been the people in the hardkore division. Not to mention there was nothing really ever hadkore about WWE wrestling anyways. I'm watching Onita get electricuted and stabbed in one federation. And then I see the Dudley Boys hitting people with cookie sheets and aluminum trash tops. Please that isn't hardkore, that is an 8th grade play.......

Quote:
And more importantly - the first and last segments should almost ALWAYS go to the main-event (or main) storyline.
First and last should go to the main event. But there won't be enough room on a show to allow just one Main Eventer make two apparences without downgrading others with 1 brand..........



Quote:
The fans will always cheer (or boo) a good gimmick. It should simply be the bookers goal to create good gimmicks, and push wrestlers according to crowd response. Nothing more, nothing less. Longer matches should be saved for PPV's. The TV shows should mainly focus on storyline build up (with the occasional "long" match between wrestlers at the end of shows).

Thanks for taking the time to read this. It is a bit long, however I'm sure you will agree that I have made some very good points, and it does make a good read.

Ferocious Out
They havn't created a good gimmick in a while, So putting more stress on them to creat excellent gimmicks for a show of Main Eventers is just not going to happen....
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Old 07 Jul 2004, 11:57 AM   #5 (permalink)
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hah.....great post Dre.....I just didn't take the time to do it.....man, I'm so glad you're back......
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Old 07 Jul 2004, 12:17 PM   #6 (permalink)
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hah.....great post Dre.....I just didn't take the time to do it.....man, I'm so glad you're back......
Ithinkyaverymuch.

Just wait until I bust Out the Lime again, then I'll really be back.....
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Old 07 Jul 2004, 03:58 PM   #7 (permalink)
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I got served,

However I must say In my defence that I do not absolutely agree with a lot of stuff that I wrote. But you do have to admit that it does make for an interesting discussion.
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Old 07 Jul 2004, 04:00 PM   #8 (permalink)
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I got served
happens.....

you see, we may not have thousands of full time posters.....but what we have are several posters who can do a great job.....
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Old 07 Jul 2004, 09:56 PM   #9 (permalink)
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But you do have to admit that it does make for an interesting discussion.
And that is truly all I ask for. Welcome to PWF..........

exscuse me for a sec:
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Old 08 Jul 2004, 05:48 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Personally, I've liked the idea of the 2 fighting against each other from the get-go. I thought that would be the entire idea. Rawvs. Smackdown and not


Raw
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